Author Topic: Vikings & Germans.....  (Read 6317 times)

Persephone

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Vikings & Germans.....
« on: September 06, 2004, 03:08:00 am »
Hej,hola,bonjour to all!
 
 I was thinking,as I always use to do the whole day...and suddenly came to my mind this following question I've always asked myself:
 
 Norse mythology is from the viking and the german culture(I know both have differences in this mythology,but still,it's the same one),but why is this?,are scandinavians and germans from the same culture,or maybe the same culture but separated?. Maybe all of you already know all this,but I don't,that's why I ask,so please,if someone can clear this out for me it'd be great,I've always been wondering about their similarities,so I want to know the whole matter well.
 
 Well,waiting for any of you!
 
 Reina del Hades**
 
 PS: Sorry Overdoneviolence,maybe this thread is for "I saw a movie blah blah.."forum,so change it if you want,but however,consider that this relates to Therion in some way,I mean,they are scandinavians,you know  ;)
.....Gnoti seauton.....

overdoneviolence

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2004, 06:39:00 am »
ok, i will not move it then.  :)

Markus

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2004, 09:24:00 am »
Hola Persephone,
 
 I would have even granted you asylum in "Albums & Lyrics", because surely you ask this question because of SOTR.
 
 As far as I know Vikings and Germanians (not to be confused with Germans) did share their culture. Especially those who raided the seas became known as Vikings. So "Vikings" and "Germanians" would refer to different aspects of the same culture. But perhaps someone else can shed more light on this.
 
 Cheers!
 
 Markus
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Vovin

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2004, 10:22:00 pm »
Buenos dias   :)  
 I can only add that swedes, danes, norwegians, germans and austrians all belong to German (Teuton) ethnic group. (e.g. just as russians, czechs, bulgarians, ukranians, belorussians, poles and serbians belong to Slav (Slavonian) ethnic group).
 So, yes, you were right.

GRISSOM

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2004, 12:58:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Markus:
  Hola Persephone,
 
 I would have even granted you asylum in "Albums & Lyrics", because surely you ask this question because of SOTR.
 
 As far as I know Vikings and Germanians (not to be confused with Germans) did share their culture. Especially those who raided the seas became known as Vikings. So "Vikings" and "Germanians" would refer to different aspects of the same culture. But perhaps someone else can shed more light on this.
 
 Cheers!
 
 Markus
yes markus...be cause they shared both territory and enemies. the vikings and germanians mixed their cultures and that's the reason why Odin is called wotan in many documents written by danish vikings and many germanian tribes
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Persephone

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2004, 02:51:00 am »
Good good....this is interesting guys...just keep on enlighten me...I'm waiting for more information    :p  
 
 
 To Markus: Thanks for that correction about germans and germanians...I was in fact looking for the right term for the ancient germanian tribes or groups,and couldn't find it,so I just called them germans(sorry    :p   ). And by the way: haha,nope,I didn't post this because of SOTR album...I just posted it'cause it's something I've always wanted to clear out,as I already said above...
 
 Returning to the subject: Which would be all the ancient germanian groups?. I know some,don't know how to call them well in english,but anyway,Vovin has already named the Teutons,I'd like someone who can complete the list.
 
 To Grissom: Are you sure that danish vikings used to call Odin "Wotan"??. I know that only germanian used to call him like that. If I'm not wrong,all scandinavians used to call him Odin.
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Athanasios

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2004, 12:54:00 am »
Yeah, Teutonic covers everyone from Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austria, and even the Saxons from northern France. Vikings, I read in a book, were called that because Vik is a bay in Norway where many raiders set out from, so a Vik-ing is someone from Vik.
 
 And like GRISSOM said, the Swedish/Norwegian name "Odin" is reflected in many cultures, such as "O

Midnight

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2004, 07:21:00 pm »
The whole of North-Europe was the ground of Germanic tribes, although these tribes can be distinguisted between. The people living in Scandinavia, Germany, the Netherlands and GB share some background yes but we do come from different families. The Celts originally were a nomadic tribe who swirled although Europe actually. But i guess you can say that we all decent of people with light hair, eyes and skin mixed with other etnicities when going to Russia and the South.
 I live in the Netherlands and my country had 2 or 3 Germanic tribes. Being from the south of the country and having my roots here for ages back, i think i can say im a decent of the 'Franken' who also lived in Belgium. But things are so mixed up now. The Dutch, Danish German, Swedish, and Norwedish language are also related as being Germanic languages originally.
 Some people online on forums mistake me for being Scandinavian though because of my light skin, hair and eyes but im not.
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Persephone

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2004, 09:35:00 pm »
Athanasios: Are you sure that Teutons were the ones who invaded Britain?,I think you're confusing them with the Saxons,they were the ones who invaded Britain after the romans and created England. Vikings invaded Britain later,in the IX century...And speaking about this: do you mean with all that,that Teutons(germanian ethnic group)are the so called Vikings then?...
 
 To Midnight: Hmmm...I guess the last thing you said isn't very feasible. The Celts are also aryan for example...I don't think that just the scandinavians are the caucasian ones,I think that this kind of race are the ethnic groups which,if I'm not wrong,come from the Indoeuropean people,ancient ethnic group,who was located in the Caucasus if I'm not mistaken,and then expanded throughout Europe. But that would be a more ancient source.
 
 Now you all might be saying: "ok,there you just said it,all of them come from the Indoeuropeans,that confirms they are the same culture indeed",but then I'd say: Then why celts are culturally different to germanian/scandinavians if all of them are supposed to come from the same source?. So that would be the base of my question above...and as you have been aswering,it seems that indeed germanians and scandinavians are the same culture...but I want more details in this matter!   :D   ,I'm waiting for someone who can shed still unknown things about this subject...so we all could know more thoroughly about this...
.....Gnoti seauton.....

quetzacoatl

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2004, 12:32:00 am »
interesting topic
Laugh about PAIN, that

Athanasios

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2004, 05:59:00 am »
Well you know, Persephone, Teutons is the entire group encompassing Saxons and Vikings among other things, so I understand what you mean, but I'm just demonstrating all the different people who are considered "Germanic" et cetera.
 
 One cool thing that I learned, how Nazis would try to pursue the true Aryan race and kill everyone else, and they killed gypsies too, from Romania and Hungary and that area, but it turns out that the gypsy-folk from southeastern/central Europe are the original, pure Aryan race. I just thought it was an interesting bit of info.
 
 And Celts are different looking than the rest of the Northern Europeans because there were tribes living in Ireland and Britain as well, and, like the British colonists in Jamestown, Virginia in the 1600's, they were just assimilated into the native culture. The same goes with Italian people; the Germanic/Gothic tribes living there were combined with Phoenician, Hebrew, Greek, and North African explorers, but this was extremely long ago, too long for anyone to be specific.

Midnight

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2004, 01:18:00 pm »
Ive read about the celts... They came originally from the regions around Austria (or so is thought, kinda hard to check) and spread throughout Europe a very very long time ago. They settled in the UK yes and then got mixed with the Anglo-saksens. The celts were a tribe we dont much about today and completely gone now. These days there is much mumbo-jumbo going around about them, especially when the whole celtic culture got fashionable again. I love their artwork though, I have a celtic knot tattoot on my rightshoulder.
 
 As for the Arian race...*shudders* I guess the Germans saw the Dutch being Arian too.. We are closely linked to the Germans yes, our language has some very similar things in it.
 
 As for the whole tribe and culture thing, please dont overmystify things. Ofcourse the people living in North-Europe are genetically linked to eachother, they lived here in tribes till the Romans started to meddle in and later the christians.
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Persephone

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2004, 03:56:00 am »
Athanasios: Pretty interesting information indeed!.
 
 Midnight: Really?,I've got a celtic symbol too,which is called Triskel...Maybe it's the same of yours?. It's about three spirals united in circle...
.....Gnoti seauton.....

Athanasios

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2004, 04:21:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Persephone:
  Athanasios: Pretty interesting information indeed!
Hehe....I do a lot of outside reading. You should read Sagas of the Icelanders to learn about the Viking lifestyle, if you are interested in it. It is a huge book, and they have the sagas of cool people like Egil Skallagrimsson, Kveldulf, Ref the Sly, and even Eirik the Red and Leif Eiriksson.

GRISSOM

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2004, 09:44:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Athanasios:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Persephone:
  Athanasios: Pretty interesting information indeed!
Hehe....I do a lot of outside reading. You should read Sagas of the Icelanders to learn about the Viking lifestyle, if you are interested in it. It is a huge book, and they have the sagas of cool people like Egil Skallagrimsson, Kveldulf, Ref the Sly, and even Eirik the Red and Leif Eiriksson. [/b]
that's a great reading my friend...congratulations
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Magic Mistress

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2004, 04:43:00 pm »
In my opinion Vikings have something to do with scandinavians.
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Franz

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2004, 05:29:00 pm »
Hi Shania,
 
 that is not an opinion, that is a fact.
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Magic Mistress

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2004, 06:54:00 am »
Lol
 Okey  :) )
 Then were there any german Vikings? LOL
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Exarkun

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2004, 04:49:00 am »
I think you have to take the political setting of the time into consideration also. What is relevant to mention there is that the northern germanic tribes never succumbed to the Roman Empire, and could consequently sustain their cultural and religious practices. Most of the other tribes were conquered by the Roman legions and we can imagine how certain religious and cultural characteristics were, one way or the other, "lost".
 
 Later on of course the germanic tribes south of Scandinavia became christians, whereas the scandinavians would stick to their "heathen" faith until around 1000 AD.

Sirius13

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2004, 11:25:00 am »
Also to be taken into account is that very little evidence remains for what was actually believed at the height of the Viking activities (roughly 750AD to 1050AD).
 
 Most of the common perceptions of Norse or Teutonic mythology come from the Icelandic writing of Snorri Sturluson, and he wrote his sagas some 200 years after the event, at the turn of the thirteenth century.  (How accurate will people write of our beliefs 200 years from now?  :D    Fantastic country, full of wonderful friendly people.  It is such an isolated place that The Viking blood still runs strong there.
 
 As far as Britain is concerned, the Danish Vikings took over the eastern half of England, installed recognised Kings, (notably King Cnut who ruled from 1016 to 1035, ).  Norwegian Vikings raided around the north of Britain & went on to Iceland, Greenland & eventually to America.  Again this is somewhat of a generalisation!
 
 Ironically the Normans who conquered England in 1066 were also of Viking descent (the name 'Norman' coming from 'Norse man').  Some years earlier a Viking named Rollo took money & land (Normandy) in France in return for not raiding Paris.  Over time these Vikings integrated into the local people and became the Normans.  ...so maybe there is Viking blood in me after all!   ;)  
 
 Hope I haven't gone on too much,
 Cheers!
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Persephone

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2004, 04:58:00 pm »
Precisely,Sirius 13...considering that you're english,and England,as you mentioned,was terribly invaded by vikings around the IX century or something...So,it's pretty likely that you have viking blood.
 
 Think about the famous king Guillermo I from Normandy,for instance...(sorry,I don't know how to say his name in english,but I think it's sort of similar to what I said??,hehe). He conquered and invaded your land and might have influenced very much there as well...
 
 And by the way!. Also,the word "Friday" for the 5th day of the week comes from the god Frej (Frej's day),and "Thursday" comes from Thor(Thor's day)   :)      ;)   .
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Midnight

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2004, 08:56:00 pm »
The Vikings raided mostly the coasts and north. They did a research to find genetic links to the vikings amongst Scottish or Irish and couldnt find any real evidence I think.... The British are mostly related to the previous anglo-saksens.
 
 Right now Im reading a booklet about the links (economy and social wise) between the Netherlands and Sweden from then till now. Interesting read, we are pretty much alike in attitude and social background... Although I doubt we are related...   :D  
 
 Btw Persephone I have a tat of a small celtic knot taking from a band. It wasnt initially a sign on is own, I took it out of the band... I have a big tat on my lowerback but thats a tribal.. Looking for a celtic knot for my third tat now.. amazing art!   ;)
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Sirius13

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2004, 07:35:00 am »
@Midnight:  You make a good point about economic links, as not many people appreciate that the traditional view of battling Vikings is but one side to their culture.  As you say, they were also widely travelled traders and highly skilled craftspeople.  Certainly the Swedish Vikings traded right across coastal Europe, evidence shows that they made it all the way round Spain and on to Italy.  The Netherlands would certainly have had much interaction with these people, I believe there is much evidence of Viking activity particularly in Frisia (is this part of The Netherlands?  I believe this to be correct, please forgive my ignorance if I am wrong!  :)  )
 
 @Persephone: Here in England, it is quite correct that we are mostly descended from Angles and Saxons, so alas I can only claim to be Viking in spirit!   However, my family originates from Wales, so I myself am a proud Celt!   :D
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Midnight

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2004, 07:50:00 am »
Frisia? Ahhh... you mean Friesland!   :)  
 
 Yes its completely to the North of the Netherlands and so the closest to Sweden so I can imagine they did the most trading with Denmark, Norway and Sweden but the whole of the Netherlands has always had a quite active trading/social relationship with Sweden. I spend a lot of time in Stockholm and have Swedish friends and I noticed we arent that different... We are both countries which are originally protestant (apart from the south where I live) and we have both a well developed social welfare system, both edging more to socialism and a 'feminine culture' (look it up in sociology books if you want to know more about this) then for example the USA.
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Persephone

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2004, 03:54:00 pm »
Sirius 13: Great!!!,I love the celtic culture!,then I'm glad to finally meet a true celt...Nice to meet you Sirius!  :)  . And yes,I know you mostly descend from anglo-saxons,but I said that because of the viking invasion there surely are some people that carry viking blood in their veins   ;)   .
 
 Midnight: Yes,you're right about that "feminine culture"...I can see it in the fact that women are paid equally to men,and that woman has a great freedom as well...at least I know that in Swenska is that way...
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SpazMonkey

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2004, 04:36:00 pm »
None of you people seem to know what you are talking about exexpt sirius13. The teutonic people are the mainland germans whereas the scandanavians generally refer to the ones off the mainland- swedish, finnish,etc. the english I guess are in their own group. Anyway, Germany was created by uniting a bunch of smaller kingdoms which held a common culture and bloodline. Swedish, Dutch, Danish etc. are all Germanic people's, the English and in some area's of eastern europe like estonia, lithuania etc. are a mixture of germanic and non germanic groups but are closely related and have viking ancestors.
 
 So to answer your question, the vikings were Germans. German is just the name of the people of northern europe who share a common culture though there are many different tribes and groups, such as the saxons and so forth. The saxons are teutons or teutonic because that just means they are Germans from the mainland. Each tribe and region had variations of the same language and the same mythology, thus the different names Wodan, Wotan, Odin, Odhinn etc. In reality Dutch, German, Swedish etc. are all dialects of the same language. In Germany and Austrai there are many dialects hoch deutsch or proper german is usually a second language to most people even in germany. The history of europe is much more tribal than I think most people realise, the modern "nationalies" really didn't exist back then or were rather vague concepts.

JAM

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2004, 08:48:00 am »
I think there is have been in the northern part of today's Germany. In the ancient days the whole area around the baltic and the north sea had been linked to each other apparently because of trading (just remember the Hanse). That's why this ethnic groups are related to each other except the finish which is a different story.
  Today's western Germany (along the border to France and Belgium) was then known as Alemannia that's why the latin languages still call Germany as Alemagne or Alemania. The Germans call their country Deutschland which is from the Teutons. In the southern parts such as Bavaria and Austria there had been absolut different tribes which had been more related to slawes and romans. In Bavaria and Austria there had been the Celts (there are still many ancient places to visit) before they went to the british Isles via south France and North Spain (Galicia).
 Friesland actually starts on the westside in Holland and reaches all the way along the german northern coastline until it almost reaches Denmark.
 
 JAM

Markus

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2004, 09:39:00 am »
Oh Monkey,
 
 you shouldn
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NallePuh

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2004, 01:29:00 am »
Just like to mention that Thomas Karlsson, the author of Therion's lyrics has written a book about the germanic/norse tradition. Might be interesting to some of you.
 
 I think it's availible through his publisher - www.ouroborosproduktion.net

Dario

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Re: Vikings & Germans.....
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2004, 07:09:00 am »
Scandinavian countries have the best standards and democracy (in Canada too ,women have same rights than men but its still depressing and boring)   :)  . I think the only negative point is that in Scandinavia  there is a lot of neo-nazis and racists...
 
 To return to the previous questions,i'd just say that the Anglo-saxons ,Vikings,Germans,dutch are descents of Germanian tribes .But Vikings are have more in common with Germans than Anglo-saxons cause they lives near each other .There is also a great linguistic connection with Vikings and Slavs but this is another page of history...
 
 In Europe we have ethnic and linguistic groups : Slavs,Germanics,Celts,Balts,Romans,Finno-Ougric(but they aren't Indo-Europeans),other ethnies doesnt belongs to ethnic groups...
 
 The more ancients one are Celts and they have preserved their rich culture wich is remarquable.
 
 The most numberous are the Slavs but their culture and mythology is still not much known..
 
 
 Uff.even i  don't understand myself..  :D